August 2003 Interview with Jeff Vogel by Indiegamer.com Indie Gamer What would you say the main trait successful Indie developers have that those who fail don't? Jeff Vogel I can't pick just one. There's too many you need. Hard work. Marketing savvy. The ability to write very solid programs. Persistance. Luck. It's a tough business, and you need everything. Indie Gamer How do you feel about the Indie game scene in general over the past year or so? Do you see any significant changes? Jeff Vogel I know that a lot of developers were getting lots of money from the big distribution serviles (RealArcade, for example). Then they weren't. However, I don't really see much of what other people are doing. I tend to live in my own little world. Indie Gamer What about the shareware market in general? Is it tougher to market your games now than it was a few years ago? Easier? Jeff Vogel Tougher. The dot-com boom was very kind to us. Piles of gaming sites, all of which needed content. Now there are less gaming news outlets, and they have less people to write for them, so they are more selective about who they'll cover. Because I'm so established, I do pretty well getting news coverage. If I was just starting out, though, it'd be real hard. Indie Gamer How about the next two years? Where do you think shareware as a marketing model is going? Is the barrier to entry rising for new people? Will it no longer be possible for the little guy to get his foot in the door? Jeff Vogel For a while, I was thinking that it would be hard to get in. Then services like RealArcade started supporting small developers, and I saw hope. And now I see less hope. But the truth is, I don't know. I really have no clue what sort of experience other developers are having. I do know two things, though. One, It has always been hard, and it will always be hard. It's really tough just writing a game good enough to pay money for. Second, there is always a place for a high quality game in an underrepresented niche, marketed well. I think you'll always be able to make a buck that way. Indie Gamer How about the competition? What Indie games have you liked recently? What are you playing generally? Jeff Vogel My competition is single-player rpgs of all sizes, and those are currently on the down slide. Less new games, of less quality than there was a few years ago. I'm not sure about other small indie people competing with me. I don't really think about competitors, though. A popular rpg that makes new people like the genre makes new customers for me. As for what I play, I play Everquest. Period. It is genuinely sad. Indie Gamer What are your ideas about "the fun factor" - Do you approach your games with some idea of what you need to do to make it fun or is it more of an intuitive process? Jeff Vogel Both. I come up with ideas until I get one that feels right. However, many years of experience has helped guide me to the ideas I evaluate. Indie Gamer What is your most popular game and why do you think that is? What makes it special? Jeff Vogel Our biggest hit was Exile 3. It was huge, it was innovative, it was really fun, and it hit the market at exactly the right time. Indie Gamer What makes a Spiderweb game special in general? Jeff Vogel I think they have just the right mix of story, puzzles, humor, and good old-fashioned carnage. I don't hit the player with too much plot, or too much dialogue, or two much mindless fighting. And I have a pathological hatred of empty spaces. I can't go too long without placing something neat. Indie Gamer Why would I play Geneforge instead of scouring the shelves for the next Baldurs Gate? Jeff Vogel I'm not sure. Baldur's Gate 2 was just too good. Indie Gamer Since you market mainly online, do you think you reach a different audience than the people that play big commercial retail role playing titles like Icewind Dale or is there a lot of overlap? Are you converting casual players into role players or are you merely reaching out and grabbing your share of an existing audience? Jeff Vogel I have absolutely no idea. I live in those sort of shut-in fantasy world, free of marketing research, target audiences, or anything else real people do. I throw out the game, and collect credit card numbers. For all I know, my games only ever sell to septugenerian eskimos. I'm not proud of this. I'm not saying this is the best way to live. But here we are. Indie Gamer Tell us a bit about your publishing efforts. How do you feel about publishing other people's games? How successful has that been for you? Is it harder to market someone else's title? Is it more difficult to judge someone elses title? Jeff Vogel It has been, to be honest, a pain. It's been hugely hit or miss, and it stresses me out. It is all the awful parts of the job that drive me nuts, without any of the fun parts. Plus, I am a terrible judge of what will sell. We're not really excited about distribution anymore. Indie Gamer Was there a key defining moment when you knew you'd be a full time Indie developer? Was your first game successful enough that it your company or was it merely enough to inspire you to continue on and build up to where you are today? Jeff Vogel I released my first game while in grad school. That provides a lot of motivation to do other things full-time. My first game (Exile) sold well enough to inspire me to go out on my own. Indie Gamer What has been the most challenging aspect for you with regards to being a successful indie developer? Jeff Vogel I've lived a very blessed existance. I've had to face very few challenges. Probably the worst thing has been dealing emotionally with the occasional, inevitable sales slumps. My employees are forbidden from telling me how many games we're selling from day to day, good news or bad. When sales are good, I don't get excited. When sales are bad, I feel terrible. So now I just hide. Indie Gamer What do you hope to achieve over the next few years. Ideally where would your company be in two years time if everything went perfectly? Jeff Vogel Exactly where I am now. Right now, things are terrific. Having fun writing games that sell a lot. Indie Gamer What about the retail scene in general. Do you sell any of your games in a box and if not why not? Jeff Vogel I don't think any of our games will ever be sold in boxes. They're too niche and too old-school. Plus, people at big companies tend to look at shareware developers and think either "sucker" or "loser". Which means that I'm unlikely to get an offer that is even minimally acceptable. Indie Gamer You sell for both Macintosh and PC. Are the markets similar? or do they differ significantly? Do you approach marketing on the different platforms differently? Jeff Vogel There are some obvious differences (more PC magazines, for example), but we tend to approach the two markets exactly the same way. Our sales are 1/3 Mac, 2/3 Windows, more or less. Indie Gamer Any advice for those new developers who aspire to make a living like you do? Jeff Vogel Write something good enough that people will pay you actual money for it. Then market it like a madman. And feel lucky if you get 1000 sales of your first game. Very lucky. Indie Gamer Lastly, tell us a bit about what's new and exciting at Spiderweb. What have players got to look forward to? What are you working on now? Jeff Vogel Geneforge 2 is done. Blades of Avernum will be out ina few months. And then we'll start 2 more games. We have the people-power.